DOT moves closer to antitrust immunity for "oneworld" alliance

    Pilotguy

    737-3,5,7,8,9,900ER CA
    Low wages drive professionals away? And what is the measure of how professional airline's pilots are? Its safety record maybe? Then VA isn't any worse than many other airlines.

    Their maintenance costs are higher. I saw their 747 replacing 2 engines because they ran them on low oil all the way crossing Atlantic. Tail strike in LAS last year. Just as examples.
    Their a/c leasing rates are higher too.
    They can take this money instead and invest it in their employees.


    When people are treated bad they don't care as much. They are just building time so they can try to go somewhere else.
     
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    Pilotguy

    737-3,5,7,8,9,900ER CA
    I saw not less business ruined by unions then by wrong management.

    Stats?
    Lets not go too far .. say only airline industry.
    I'll be waiting :)
    Thx


    PS. Unions try to better the working conditions, not to destroy the companies. For the simple reason - the workers will stay at a certain company much, much longer then management leaders in overwhelming majority of cases.
    It is our companies, not theirs. Why would we want to destroy them? We want good conditions so we also can attract good workers in the future. And have 20.000 applications for 20 openings, selecting the best.

    The way the Union efforts presented in the media are often deceiving, since the leadership of business world has more influence on the media.
     
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    Lukas

    Старожил
    I assume the best and well known example is Alitalia, same way goes BA, but to make thing easier for you to dispute lets talk about American carriers.

    What unions there are doing looks like a consumer boycott. Publicly slandering their own airline, as a tactic to pressure management into capitulating to union extortion demands, is an age-old tactic of airline unions. "Don't buy our service." How could this be in the employees' best interest"?!

    Such approach became widely used during and after the 1985 pilots' strike against United Airlines. Unions even went to the extreme of handing out a packet to every pilot, with forms for reporting to the union, unsafe situations that the pilots might observe in daily operations. They were to keep handing in those forms so the unions could "document" how unsafe United was. The most "interesting" thing came out later when it was proved in the Court that two leaders of the Union had a secret plan to drive down the stock price of UAL, so they could enact a hostile takeover of the company.

    he FAA has historically been flooded with complaints about improper maintenance and procedures, whenever there is a protracted contract dispute between an airline and its union members. Those same union members also leak to the press, so that the FAA is forced to follow up and investigate those complaints, even though most turn out to be bogus.

    The same thing happened at Eastern and Continental when both were staring bankruptcy in the face, and management said the only way to save their companies was for union members to accept significant cuts in wages and benefits.

    At Eastern Airlines, the mechanics union was able to get ABC's 20/20 program to do a segment on how Eastern maintenance on an Airbus engine, and on a stretched DC-9, was deficient and endangered the flying public. Both claims were bogus; there was no substandard maintenance in either case. Yet, the leftist press was willing to act as a shill for the labor unions against Eastern. In so doing, ABC and other media outlets helped the unions to destroy the jobs that used to exist at that airline.

    Do you remember when the press was full of stories about how airlines were cutting back on decent cabin air, to save fuel? Totally bogus issue. It was started by the Flight Attendants union, when they were in contract negotiations with UAL. Of course, Ralph Nader and his corporation-hating robots jumped right in and sung the chorus on that one. For why I saw that as a totally bogus issue, go to:

    http://airlinesafety.com/faq/CabinAir.htm

    and:

    http://airlinesafety.com/letters/CabinAirQlty.htm

    The moral of the story, is to take with a grain of salt, the postings by union members of how unsafe their airline is. Once the contracts have been settled, those kinds of allegations usually drift silently away.

    The problem that the industry has with unions, under our current American Labor Laws, is that they are based on force; they are based on fraud; they are based on coercion, intimidation and outright violence. Could any one who supports labor unions has ever been willing to give a coherent answer: "If the unions have such a good product to sell, why cannot they sell it without the use of fraud, coercion and outright violence?"

    Unions lie a lot, and that is a major reason why over 400,000 private sector unions jobs were eliminated in the year 2002, alone. Unions do not create and protect jobs. To the contrary, they seem to be intent on destroying those jobs with their kamikaze, kill the golden goose that lays our eggs, mentality.
     
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    Pilotguy

    737-3,5,7,8,9,900ER CA
    It is a market after all. Every airline is free to choose its own balance between crew wages, ad spendings and other things. And the metric of success here is company's profit and if passenger (and not flight or cabin crew, sorry) is satisfied.

    Is dead passenger - satisfied passenger?
    Safety goes hand in hand with the professionalism of a crew. It is a simple statement, obvious to many and I am not trying to change any market laws. :)

    All I am saying is that in order to provide safety, like in the US for example, things need to be fair and keeping pros around and treating them well is a big part of it.

    You guys are confusing the occupations and want pretty and cheep girls as your flight attendants.
    I want flight attendants that will be able to save my and my family member's lives and if they cost more so be it - I am OK with paying 10 dollars more for a ticket.

    If they are boys or girls, young or over 30, white, black or yellow with bad English or not - it is another story, not related to my travel plans.

    All there is to it!
     
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    Pilotguy

    737-3,5,7,8,9,900ER CA
    Lukas,
    There are plenty of media coverage supporting both sides. I did not ask for that.
    I asked for statistics supporting your statement on more airlines that gone out of business due to union efforts then by bad management's decisions.

    PS United is still around :)


    PPS. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think you have zero experince working with Unions in a free market set up. All you know is from the press and you are scared to death to see real unions in your company some day, aren't you?!! :)
     
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    Lukas

    Старожил
    Pilotguy, nobody but you here knows what real unions are. I just had 5 years in British aviation company, set up two companies in LUX and AMS, now I'm with HKG company working for Canadians. All those companies never heard anything about free market

    But you are right - in my airline any unions, even a single union member wont be allowed. Airline is two serious busines to allow bustards onboard.
     
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    Pilotguy

    737-3,5,7,8,9,900ER CA
    All those companies never heard anything about free market
    But you are right - in my airline any unions, even a single union member wont be allowed.

    Lukas, Not allowed by you or by law? How is that a free market?? :)

    So you don't have any experience of working with Unions, just like I supposed? Thank you, it explains a lot and your misinformation makes total sense.
    Unions are not that bad. Just sit down and have a conversation. There are many companies that have excellent relationships with Unions. And people line up to work there because of that.

    OK what is the point?

    If you:

    don't have any questions for me any longer,

    keep dodging my questions,

    keep giving me you resume,

    have zero understanding on what unions do,

    keep me guessing on what you are trying to say with your bad English and

    insulting me, my fallen friends and my unionized colleagues

    then I suggest you take your tactless manner of discussing things somewhere else.
    Just remember when employees at your company decide to unionize you will be the last person they'll ask :)

    Good luck!
     
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    luitje

    Дилетант широкого профиля
    Phew, guys... How come everything here ends up with blaming Russia being uncivilised society and morons choosing to live there?
    Pilotguy, are you implying Virgin pilots and cabin crews are less professional because they make less money than their counterparts in BA and AF?
    With this trade unions thing, although my bro will probably disapprove, but it is oh so 1930-s. Unions are a valid concept in monopolized markets. I don't believe aviation industry in the UK, US or, God forbid, Russia is the case. You don't like your pay, go get a better one with a different company. UNION is actually a classy example of how useless trade unions are in the modern world. Run by a bunch of morons who make their living (and jolly good one) by puffing hot air and using gullible members to push forward their own ambitions.
     

    Mechanic

    Press F1 for help
    And what I do not understand is how an employer must employ people he does not like? In other words, if I create a company, if I am the only one who pays, why is it I have to hire people that do not correspond to my vision of the company? The jobs I create are my jobs, not given by God, right? So why is that I should give everyone equal right to be hired???

    p.s. No, I don't own a company; I'm just trying to understand.
     

    AndreiB

    Местный
    Is dead passenger - satisfied passenger?
    Safety goes hand in hand with the professionalism of a crew. It is a simple statement, obvious to many and I am not trying to change any market laws.

    I wrote in my original message that safety record for VA is not any worse than that for other airlines, including US ones. So if this is a measure of professionalism than it isn't damaged by low wages.

    Satisfied passenger is passenger who will use your airline again and won't switch to competitors, I thought this is obvious. After all, is VA profitable? If yes then management is good at doing their job. Again, they're here not to make flight and cabin crew happy, they're here to raise profits. Putting it in your slang, they're (VA executives) pursuing their own happiness.
     

    Lukas

    Старожил
    Unions are not that bad. Just sit down and have a conversation. There are many companies that have excellent relationships with Unions. And people line up to work there because of that.
    There are many people that are ok with cockroaches and rats in their basements. Somebody even talk to it.
    Thats not for me, sorry
     
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    Pilotguy

    737-3,5,7,8,9,900ER CA
    I wrote in my original message that safety record for VA is not any worse than that for other airlines, including US ones. So if this is a measure of professionalism than it isn't damaged by low wages.

    I shared two examples known to me that took place in the past 6 months where the company spend millions of dollars of extra costs because the crews simply did not care.

    I suggested they instead invest it into their employees to help them treasure their jobs and become more professional.
    Safety level that makes it into press is not precise enough for me. The 747 crew could have lost 2 engines or even 3 engines 20 or 200 miles from JFK, but they simply were lucky.

    I don't like when airlines run on luck.
     

    Pilotguy

    737-3,5,7,8,9,900ER CA
    There are many people that are ok with cockroaches and rats in their basements. Somebody even talk to it.
    Thats not for me, sorry

    I agree, it is not for me either. I have exterminator working on my house twice a year.

    Just to make it clear - whom do you refer to as "the rats and cockroaches"? Am I supposed to read between the lines?

    Why don't you come out and say what you mean strait forward?
    "Passing" Afghanistan or starting companies around the world didn't teach you to communicated clearly? :) :)




    ========================================================

    IF by cockroaches and rats you mean Union representing employees at your company here is a little education for you: it will not be up to you to decide!! It'll be up to them ;)

    That is if you work in a free market.

    And if you ever worked in the free market you would already know that!
    Sorry, but I believe your resume less and less :)
     
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    Pilotguy

    737-3,5,7,8,9,900ER CA
    Satisfied passenger is passenger who will use your airline again and won't switch to competitors, I thought this is obvious.
    It is obvious for someone who is far, far away from the industry or who never experiences real competition between the carriers. Reality in our day is - people will change the airlines in a heartbeat. In fact VA has nearly 45% turn over in satisfied passengers.


    After all, is VA profitable? If yes then management is good at doing their job. Again, they're here not to make flight and cabin crew happy, they're here to raise profits. Putting it in your slang, they're (VA executives) pursuing their own happiness.

    They are profitable because they can undercut airlines who attract and keep good employees. Managements job is to make it work and they do. My argument - they are doing it at the expense of experience on board. I wrote it in many posts on this tread already.

    PS. Pursuit of happiness is not my slang :) :) It is the most important line in the US Constitution!

    ...
     
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    Pilotguy

    737-3,5,7,8,9,900ER CA
    In other words, if I create a company, if I am the only one who pays, why is it I have to hire people that do not correspond to my vision of the company? The jobs I create are my jobs, not given by God, right? So why is that I should give everyone equal right to be hired???


    You absolutely can hire whoever you want. You would have to comply with the local laws, of course and will have those limitations.

    Then you will end up with people who WILL work for you.

    And if they are not professional enough for me because of any reasons - my family and I will not fly your airline.

    Does it make sense?
    That is what I have been saying all along.


    So why is that I should give everyone equal right to be hired???
    If you live in a free society you should give everyone equal right to apply. Then comes selection based on what kind of people you want.
    If you provide good working conditions you will have dozens of applicants per a vacancy and will be able to select the best to create the best company possible.

    I am not saying that you have to carry your employees in your arms all day. All I am saying - people should like the place and not try to go somewhere else all the time.
    Unions create such environment. I understand how scary they are for managers who never worked with them.
    The problem is - misunderstanding of the negotiation process and the role of Unions overall.
    They will not help deficient employees to stay employed, unlike many think.
    They will never jeopardize safety or customer service efforts of the company (even though you can find many articles misinterpreting it otherwise) etc, etc, etc.

    When I interviewed for my current job my airline had 13.000 applications and hired 450 pilots. Why so tough? Because everyone wants to work here and other airlines can't find enough pilots. And when anyone can get hired - it is not a good company overall.

    Does this make sense?
     
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