Катастрофа самолета RRJ-95B RA-89098 в аэропорту Шереметьево 05.05.2019 - обсуждение

Ariec 71

Ariec 71
Тут недавно ссылку присылали: тренажёр в Москве с уважаемым Деноканом
Старый видос. Денокан ничего там не навяливал, выводов не выводил. Руды убирал на айдл над торцом, таки по подсказке инструктора, не дожидаясь ретард, если вам это о чом то говорит. И да, это всего лишь тренажёр.
 

Прочнист

заблокирован
Условно, плоский штопор вокруг центра тяжести (ага, сферический самолет в вакууме). Тогда центробежная сила пилотов будет тянуть вперед.

Датчики перегрузки - в 99.99% случаев одноосевые приборы. Если ускорение действует перпендикулярно чувствительной оси, то прибор его не отметит. То, что тянет летчика вперед, будет измеряться датчиком продольной перегрузки nx.

Наиболее существенна вертикальная перегрузка ny.
 

Ariec 71

Ariec 71
дабы окончательно закрыть эту тухлую тему: если кто-нибудь может организовать тренажёр Ссджей, согласен на тех же условиях (как у нашего героя) продемонстрировать посадку в дм.
Это конторе надо было организовывать сессии в дм и почаще
 

scraper

Старожил
Разница в том, что у Airbus это человеческим языком описано, а у SSJ нет.
Вот этот язык вам чем не нравится?
...
FLIGHT CONTROLS ELEVATORS Two elevators are used to control the aircraft in pitch. The elevators are attached to the horizontal stabilizer. And operate symmetrically - when the right elevator goes up, the left elevator also goes up.

Each elevator is operated by two hydraulic actuators (ElevatorElectro Hydraulic Servo, E-EHS). One actuator is in active mode while the other is in standby / damped mode. In case of power loss or under failure condition the active actuator switches to a standby mode and the former standby actuator becomes active. With every power-up of the aircraft, the active E-EHS changes to standby, and the standby E-EHS becomes active.

ELEVATOR CONTROL & OPERATION Each actuator is signaled electrically and is controlled by one ACE unit. Elevator control operates in two modes:

NORMAL operating mode - The pilot / co-pilot moves the side stick. The side stick sensors convert the mechanical movements of the side sticks into an electrical signal. Within the ACE, the signal is demodulated and transferred to the PFCU. In the PFCU the signal is compared to given data from all aircraft systems. The initial signal is adapted to the current situation. The adapted signal is transferred back to the ACE. The ACE transmits the signal to the E-EHS. The E-EHS moves the elevator.

DIRECT operating mode – When the transfer of signals to or from the PFCU fails, the system switches automatically to direct mode. The signal given by the movement of the sidestick is transferred to the ACE and then directly forwarded to the E-EHS.

Artificial feel is provided by a constant centering spring and a damper within each sidestick controller.

...
HORIZONTAL STABILIZER The pitch trim function is achieved by adjusting the position of the Horizontal Stabilizer. Pitch trim (the nose up/down tendency of the airplane) is achieved by moving the entire horizontal stabilizer. Pitch trim operation is automatic or manual. While the elevators are used for short-term pitch control, the horizontal stabilizer is used for long term pitch trim. The stabilizer is operated by the Stabilizer Setting Mechanism (SSM). The SSM is a ball-screw mechanism comprised of upper and lower independent drives with two motors supplied from different electric systems.

HORIZONTAL STABILIZER CONTROL & OPERATION The horizontal stabilizer is controlled by Motor Actuator Control Electronic (MACE) Unit 1 and 2. The MACE units control the SSM. Horizontal Stabilizer control operates in two modes:

NORMAL operating mode
► For altitude lower/equal to 15 m (49.2 ft) – manual mode: The PFCU does not automatically command the SSM. Before
flight, the pilot manually sets the Stabilizer to the correct take-off configuration by moving the duplex trim switch on the trim panel.
► For altitude higher than 15 m – Automatic Operation Mode (AOM): The PFCU automatically commands the SSM configuration. Each MACE receives signals from the PFCU. The MACE transmits the signal to the SSM. DIRECT operating mode - When the transfer of signals to or from all three PFCUs fails, control switches automatically to direct mode. If the pilot manually commands pitch trim by using the stabilizer trim switch the system also operates in direct mode. The given signal is transferred directly to the MACE and then sent to the SSM.

DIRECT operating mode - When the transfer of signals to or from all three PFCUs fails, control switches automatically to direct mode. If the pilot manually commands pitch trim by using the stabilizer trim switch the system also operates in direct mode. The given signal is transferred directly to the MACE and then sent to the SSM.
...

FLIGHT CONTROL SYSTEM MODES
FCS provides two independent operational modes, depending on fly-by-wire components status and depending on supporting systems status:
► Normal Mode
► Direct Mode.

NORMAL MODE
After power-up and initialization without detected faults, the FCS operates in normal mode, and continues to do so until power down or detection of a failure which prevents normal mode operation.
The control laws for the normal mode reside on three, twochannel Primary Flight Control Units (PFCU). The PFCUs are directly connected to the ACEs and MACEs, which are used to control and monitor the movement of the surfaces.
The system operates in normal mode when at least one of the three PFCU’s is still active, communication between PFCU and ACE’s/stabilizer MACEs is active and the required parameters from supporting systems (ADS, IRS) are available.

In normal mode all flight control laws, programmed protections and flight envelope limitations are available to the FCS. For example:
► Automatic limitation of angle of attack and normal g- load
► Automatic pitch trim
► Aircraft attitude hold in pitch and roll axes with no pilots’ control actions
► Automatic counteract of the disturbing yaw moment in case of engine failure with APR signal generation and output to the engine control system of the operative engine at all flight stages
► Automatic aircraft braking at the landing run by means of multifunctional spoilers and ground spoilers
► Automatic limitation of the rudder deflection depending on indicated air speed

Normal-Mode.jpg

...
DIRECT MODE
Each backbone module is capable of direct mode operation. Direct mode is a back-up mode, if any failure prevents normal mode operation. Direct mode cannot be entered by pilot action.

In the event of loss of all valid command signals from/to all the PFCUs to an individual ACE/stabilizer MACE, this channel and the whole FCS enters direct mode. The FCS enters direct mode, if at least one EHS or stabilizer motor channel determines that normal mode is unavailable.

The FCS also enters direct mode, if parameters from ADS or IRS are not available.

In direct mode, pilot commands result in direct movement of the control surface.

================================
The control laws for the direct mode reside on the ACE / MACE.
================================
For stability in direct mode, the FCS provides roll, pitch and yaw damping capability. For this purpose the ACEs receive body rate signals from back-up Rate Sensor Units (RSUs).

Transitions in operational modes do not result in abrupt surface motion.

Direct-Mode.jpg

...
=====================================
Итого.
Нет такого режима в Нормал Моде при котором сигнал бы минуя PFCU (Primary Flight Computer Unit - двухканальные вычислители верхнего уровня), сразу бы шел на MACE/ACE (Motor Actuator Control Electronic) и оттуда на актуатор РВ (E-EHS) !

=====================================
...
СДУ-ССЖ.jpg



А вот почему в ДМ на посадке наблюдались "аналогичные размашистые движения БРУ":

Потому что 100500 посадок делается вот так:
NORMAL MODE
The control laws for the normal mode reside on three, twochannel Primary Flight Control Units (PFCU)


А потом внезапно прилетает то, подобие чего ты видишь раз в полгода на тренажере..
DIRECT MODE
The control laws for the direct mode reside on the ACE / MACE
 
Последнее редактирование:

Отто Кац

Фельдкурат
Что "как"? Что такое неустойчивость по скорости? Так этому на каком-то там курсе учат. И в военных училищах тоже.
Устойчивый по скорости самолет при ее потере опускает нос и разгоняется. Неустойчивый - задирает нос. Именно так себя ведет SSJ (и А320). Они стремятся сохранить траекторию. Но на посадке этого не происходит. И Airbus объяснил почему это так. А Сухой - нет. Хотя режим flare там слизан с арбуза один в один.

Нет такого режима в Нормал Моде при котором сигнал бы минуя PFCU (Primary Flight Computer Unit - двухканальные вычислители верхнего уровня), сразу бы шел на MACE/ACE (Motor Actuator Con
Так и на Арбузе в Normal law все FCC работают. Однако четко сказано, что ниже 50ft реализовано ПРЯМОЕ управление по тангажу. Суховцы этот момент обошли.
 

Ariec 71

Ariec 71
"Доцент" заставил бы!"

Каким угловым, тем что на козле?
Дык, для этого написано: "Зафиксировать БРУ ...", для ЛЮБОГО режима.
Могу вам понаписать. Как сажать неустойчивую, склонную к раскачке и козлению машину. Даст вам что то при радикальной перемене навыков.
 

Ariec 71

Ariec 71
Что "как"? Что такое неустойчивость по скорости? Так этому на каком-то там курсе учат.
Что такое неустойчивость по скорости обучил местных самолично.
Не вы, поподробней и попроще, почему отключается стабилизация по перегрузке и причем здесь неустойчивость по скорости и есть ли она у суперджета.
 

Отто Кац

Фельдкурат
Могу вам понаписать. Как сажать неустойчивую, склонную к раскачке и козлению машину. Даст вам что то при радикальной перемене навыков.
Даст, даст. Накажут больнее. Нельзя будет сказать: "Я не знал..."
"Как не знал, когда Ariec 71 написал тебе все?" - ответят. И добавят огурцов...
 

Отто Кац

Фельдкурат
Не вы, поподробней и попроще, почему отключается стабилизация по перегрузке и причем здесь неустойчивость по скорости и есть ли она у суперджета.
Нихачунибуду. У мну завтра выходной, мну ынглиш учит: Ай ду ю пиво он тездэй!
 

Н И А

Старожил
Вот этот язык вам чем не нравится?
...
FLIGHT CONTROLS ELEVATORS Two elevators are used to control the aircraft in pitch. The elevators are attached to the horizontal stabilizer. And operate symmetrically - when the right elevator goes up, the left elevator also goes up.

Each elevator is operated by two hydraulic actuators (ElevatorElectro Hydraulic Servo, E-EHS). One actuator is in active mode while the other is in standby / damped mode. In case of power loss or under failure condition the active actuator switches to a standby mode and the former standby actuator becomes active. With every power-up of the aircraft, the active E-EHS changes to standby, and the standby E-EHS becomes active.

ELEVATOR CONTROL & OPERATION Each actuator is signaled electrically and is controlled by one ACE unit. Elevator control operates in two modes:

NORMAL operating mode - The pilot / co-pilot moves the side stick. The side stick sensors convert the mechanical movements of the side sticks into an electrical signal. Within the ACE, the signal is demodulated and transferred to the PFCU. In the PFCU the signal is compared to given data from all aircraft systems. The initial signal is adapted to the current situation. The adapted signal is transferred back to the ACE. The ACE transmits the signal to the E-EHS. The E-EHS moves the elevator.

DIRECT operating mode – When the transfer of signals to or from the PFCU fails, the system switches automatically to direct mode. The signal given by the movement of the sidestick is transferred to the ACE and then directly forwarded to the E-EHS.

Artificial feel is provided by a constant centering spring and a damper within each sidestick controller.

...
HORIZONTAL STABILIZER The pitch trim function is achieved by adjusting the position of the Horizontal Stabilizer. Pitch trim (the nose up/down tendency of the airplane) is achieved by moving the entire horizontal stabilizer. Pitch trim operation is automatic or manual. While the elevators are used for short-term pitch control, the horizontal stabilizer is used for long term pitch trim. The stabilizer is operated by the Stabilizer Setting Mechanism (SSM). The SSM is a ball-screw mechanism comprised of upper and lower independent drives with two motors supplied from different electric systems.

HORIZONTAL STABILIZER CONTROL & OPERATION The horizontal stabilizer is controlled by Motor Actuator Control Electronic (MACE) Unit 1 and 2. The MACE units control the SSM. Horizontal Stabilizer control operates in two modes:

NORMAL operating mode
► For altitude lower/equal to 15 m (49.2 ft) – manual mode: The PFCU does not automatically command the SSM. Before
flight, the pilot manually sets the Stabilizer to the correct take-off configuration by moving the duplex trim switch on the trim panel.
► For altitude higher than 15 m – Automatic Operation Mode (AOM): The PFCU automatically commands the SSM configuration. Each MACE receives signals from the PFCU. The MACE transmits the signal to the SSM. DIRECT operating mode - When the transfer of signals to or from all three PFCUs fails, control switches automatically to direct mode. If the pilot manually commands pitch trim by using the stabilizer trim switch the system also operates in direct mode. The given signal is transferred directly to the MACE and then sent to the SSM.

DIRECT operating mode - When the transfer of signals to or from all three PFCUs fails, control switches automatically to direct mode. If the pilot manually commands pitch trim by using the stabilizer trim switch the system also operates in direct mode. The given signal is transferred directly to the MACE and then sent to the SSM.
...

FLIGHT CONTROL SYSTEM MODES
FCS provides two independent operational modes, depending on fly-by-wire components status and depending on supporting systems status:
► Normal Mode
► Direct Mode.

NORMAL MODE
After power-up and initialization without detected faults, the FCS operates in normal mode, and continues to do so until power down or detection of a failure which prevents normal mode operation.
The control laws for the normal mode reside on three, twochannel Primary Flight Control Units (PFCU). The PFCUs are directly connected to the ACEs and MACEs, which are used to control and monitor the movement of the surfaces.
The system operates in normal mode when at least one of the three PFCU’s is still active, communication between PFCU and ACE’s/stabilizer MACEs is active and the required parameters from supporting systems (ADS, IRS) are available.

In normal mode all flight control laws, programmed protections and flight envelope limitations are available to the FCS. For example:
► Automatic limitation of angle of attack and normal g- load
► Automatic pitch trim
► Aircraft attitude hold in pitch and roll axes with no pilots’ control actions
► Automatic counteract of the disturbing yaw moment in case of engine failure with APR signal generation and output to the engine control system of the operative engine at all flight stages
► Automatic aircraft braking at the landing run by means of multifunctional spoilers and ground spoilers
► Automatic limitation of the rudder deflection depending on indicated air speed

Посмотреть вложение 765997
...
DIRECT MODE
Each backbone module is capable of direct mode operation. Direct mode is a back-up mode, if any failure prevents normal mode operation. Direct mode cannot be entered by pilot action.

In the event of loss of all valid command signals from/to all the PFCUs to an individual ACE/stabilizer MACE, this channel and the whole FCS enters direct mode. The FCS enters direct mode, if at least one EHS or stabilizer motor channel determines that normal mode is unavailable.

The FCS also enters direct mode, if parameters from ADS or IRS are not available.

In direct mode, pilot commands result in direct movement of the control surface.

================================
The control laws for the direct mode reside on the ACE / MACE.
================================
For stability in direct mode, the FCS provides roll, pitch and yaw damping capability. For this purpose the ACEs receive body rate signals from back-up Rate Sensor Units (RSUs).

Transitions in operational modes do not result in abrupt surface motion.

Посмотреть вложение 765998
...
=====================================
Итого.
Нет такого режима в Нормал Моде при котором сигнал бы минуя PFCU (Primary Flight Computer Unit - двухканальные вычислители верхнего уровня), сразу бы шел на MACE/ACE (Motor Actuator Control Electronic) и оттуда на актуатор РВ (E-EHS) !

=====================================
...
Посмотреть вложение 765999


А вот почему в ДМ на посадке наблюдались "аналогичные размашистые движения БРУ":

Потому что 100500 посадок делается вот так:
NORMAL MODE
The control laws for the normal mode reside on three, twochannel Primary Flight Control Units (PFCU)


А потом внезапно прилетает то, подобие чего ты видишь раз в полгода на тренажере..
DIRECT MODE
The control laws for the direct mode reside on the ACE / MACE
Ещё раз: в чём разница для пилота в манипуляциях с БРУ ниже 50' для режимов НМ и ДМ?